Talk:Noble

Cody, I added some info to your entry. I'm sure Super can add a lot more, though. --Dave 15:48, 19 August 2006 (EDT)

I added some, but there's a crapload more to add. --Super 19 August 2006 (EDT)

Super, although you noted that the PBF was formed by merging Justice, Liberation, and Crusader in early 1997, I am almost certain that the PBF was formed originally from only Justice and Liberation. Crusader was brought into the PBF as much as a year later. See Grey's Tour 3 awards ceremony (Dated September 1997), which shows both a Crusader Fleet CO and a PBF CO. --Dave 16:39, 19 August 2006 (EDT)

I remember all that happening at the same time, and actually don't remember Noble being a part of it. Hmmm, can we can someone like Macman to up that part of this entry? --Super 20 August 2006 (EDT)

Macman's Recollection of the creation of the PBF and Noble's leadership

I've spoken with Macman about this. He gave a rather lengthy response. Since Mac is claiming that he is wiki illiterate, I'm going to paste his email response in its entirety here. A summary of his observations will be added to the Noble article. Here's what Mac has to say:

"The PBF first formed while I had the duty of being the RS Roster officer. Basically its origins were set into motion because of concerns I came across while attempting to revamp Fury Fro's mess of the old Justice and Liberation fleet rosters. I had sent inquires out to most of the Wings and Squadron of both fleets asking for a complete roster check, and most of them came back as mailer error "not found". Of the ones that didn't bounce, very few actually replied even after my repeated email attempts.

With the exception of Provider Wing (Led By Greedo96), Resurrection Wing (Led by myself), and a handful of pilots from the various squadrons it quickly became clear that for the most part, both fleets had been allowed to become fully inactive without any type of a CoC in place. I informed Diala Thos of the situation and after HC discussion, that I don't recall if I was involved in off hand or not, it was decided the two Fleets would merge into the newly created PBF.

Now if I remember correctly there was much to do about who would actually lead the PBF. RebelSkum or BA Noble. I don't know the specifics of how this was decided but Noble took over. As I was the roster officer, I had a Major hand in the formation of the fleet and placement of the pilots within. With that in mind, I was named the Fleet XO.

As for Nobles leadership of the PBF. To be honest, he did no more with it than Fro had previously done with his miserable version of the RS Roster. I actually came to resent him because of this, as it seemed to me he was content with attaining his power as CO while leaving me as his XO to do the actual running of the fleet for him.

Anyway, I officially took the lead of the fleet shortly after I was named FC because of noble retiring/ He did so, because RC had just called a vote of no confidence in his leadership abilities. It wasn't pretty. When Noble stepped down he took a shot at both DaT and Myself by asking that one of the other wing leaders within the PBF, Strider RS, be named as its new CO. Basically ignoring the fact that I had already been doing his Job, and taking a stab at DaT for nominating me as FC. I actually have an archive I recently posted that shows both RC"s call for a vote of no confidence and Nobles Retirement note. Its a good read.

http://members.aol.com/macmanrs/emails/PBFCO-Noble-Retires.txt

Now I'm not one for pushing the point of defaming a fellow member of the club. But the simple fact of the matter is that Noble failed as PBF CO, and chose abrupt unconditional retirement rather than being voted out of the seat by the High Command. Seeing that he's never returned since, I think its more than fair to make a note of this marking the end of his career in his Wiki file. To be honest, looking back in hindsight with all the political turmoil in mind, especially the waves he caused when DaT nominated Me as FC, I wouldn't doubt for a second if someone told me that he had been an EH spy with some sort of an agenda. Either way, his ultimate plan seemed to be headed into the direction of laying the RS right into Ronin's lap. Of course I have no real proof of this, but it would take a lot to convince me otherwise.

Anyway enough of that. Here's the tricky part. Crusader Merged with the PBF much later than the Justice and Liberation. This was in late 1997 early 1998. The tricky part is that I'm not sure of exactly when this happened because I don't have any surviving records documenting it. Whatever the case, the PBF as its actually known today didn't actually solidify itself as a fully functional fleet until Crusader had merged with it and at that time I gave the command structure and wing setup a complete overhaul along with the implementation of the Fleet specific Merits/medals system. Anyway, from there I started the TOD 1.01 and that as they say... was that.

If you have any further questions or need something else, just let me know.

~Mac" --Dave 21:23, 20 August 2006 (EDT)

After reading the email Mac provided..

I came to the conclusion that these "two views" are not necessarily irreconcilable. The tale seems clear to me, that of a man who was distracted by websites and executive office stuff instead of running his fleet-- forgivable, and I think RC could have handled it better, but certainly Noble could have also handled it better. I'm not sure what "overt political maneuvers" refers to, so maybe that could be explained further, but the rest seems to make sense. -Licah Fox 15:35, 21 August 2006 (EDT)

uncomfortable

Mac offered his opinion on the matter to Rekio, and that is fine. However, I feel that Mac's comments should not be directly quoted. We can sum up his sentiment into a sentence or two about his dismissal, but having all of this other stuff is inflammatory. I've had my mind to make similar comments regarding others, but have avoided the urge to keep this database free of overly stated negative opinions that could cause a flame war if one of these people come back to see what's been written about them.

My suggestion here is to come up with a cleaned-up simplified version of thangs, settle the matter and remove this entire discussion page content once this is done.

We can objectively reconcile the several versions by simply listing a rough timeline of events with a simple introductory paragraph. The events themselves cannot be argued against, so not likely to become inflammatory.

Savy?

actually, not too bad on the current version...

This looks fine to me

Mac intentionally stated that we could quote him directly on everything he said in his email, so I see no problem there. The discussion page is meant to be just that - opinions and discussion. That's why I quoted Mac's email on the discussion, but put a scaled-down summary of events on the article entry itself. This is exactly what the difference between article and discussion is for, in my opinion. I can understand wishing to spare a member's feelings if they are still around, but I think the passage of a decade sort of releases us from the obligation to whitewash bad stuff like that. If you have information like that about other members, Super, I wouldn't feel too bad about posting it.

Not with my dollar. :)

I don't agree with that. The discussion page is as open and visible as the article. I'm not so concerned about a particular individual's feelings as I am about setting this wiki up as a positive environment that is in line with H.I.E.R. There are some matters that are appropriate for public consumption and some that are meant to be left in the offices of the CS and HC. We should try to keep an objective and positive environment here as we would anywhere in the RS. This can be down without whitewashing. After all, being objective is neither whitewashing nor inflammatory. Licah's rewrite of the article does this pretty well. So, I think we should at least remove Mac's comments here. We can still leave the resignation letter link, as that is in-and-of-itself a point of fact, even if it does record negative actions.

So yeah

The world's not full of sunshine and lollipops and neither is the RS. Censorship for the sake of making things seem happier is...well wait what's the word for that, oh yes FAIL.

---It's not censorship. There's no press here to keep free. It's just us. Do we wanna turn this wiki into a place where people feel free to flame each other? Believe me, many of Mac's comments are substantiated, but many are nonsensical, such as notion that Noble wanted to hand the RS over to the EH. That's got no basis in fact and it is a sly way of calling in a traitor, which isn't substantiated by anything. This is what we want to left up. someone's bad feelings about someone else? It doesn't have a place here and opens this wiki up for corruption way from documenting the RS to just being a flame war location for whoever happens to get to write and article first. --super