Vaughan/Cartography Discussion
04/12/2006 17:37 Vaughan
Greetings gentlemen. ":)
It is my intention to get this cartography project properly rolling along, mostly spurned on by two things: my want/need for location names to name historical battles after for the timeline, and Randy's expression of interest in working on a locations project in concert with the Logistics Office.
If you're reading this email, then you're relevant to the project in some way --- Randy has agreed to help work on data for the locations, Rekio and Raven are Deputy and Tactical Logistics Officers, respectively, Abi has agreed to work on turning what we produce into sleek-looking sector maps, Dave is FC, and Josh as PBF CO has created storyline in various locations, and may have input on where his fleet was at certain times.
I'd firstly like to start off with the established canon representation (see below) of our local area and beyond (Abi: not that it's only the Elrood and Tantra Sectors down to the Kathol Sector that we need to worry about . . . although maybe include the Subterrel Sector, too . . . so for any map that you would make, take those borders there as accurate for those established locations).
http://lo.rebelsquadrons.org/Cartography/SouthernOuterRim.jpg
Anything we want to create must fit within those established borders.
Here is an early sketch (see below) of my impression of where locations could be in relation to each other, based on the Planets Database and ITOD missions and campaigns (note that this is a crappy sketch, and is very rough --- most definitely not to scale!).
http://lo.rebelsquadrons.org/Cartography/LocalNeighbourhood20060831a.png
And before I get into explanations of why I tentatively placed locations where I did, please refer to this wiki entry on tour locations.
Okay, now . . . regarding placements . . . these are some fairly solid placements that I don't foresee changing:
Greeop Sector --- must be rimward (down) of the Minos Cluster, and must be sort of to the right of the Cadrel Expanse, possibly rimward (down) slightly. Now, since the Greeop Sector is not covered in any official sources (since we're apocryphal), I've tried to allow for that, by not placing us exactly on the main trade route (Triton). Therefore we must be either to the left, or to the right of it. Personally I think we must be to the left of it, but back when I made this sketch I thought otherwise. Why do I think it must be to the left? Because the Minos Conflict was a battle for four star systems in the Minos Cluster (Dar'telis, Lantare, Yridia, Lyccos) which are completely made-up systems . . . now, from what we know of established Minos Cluster locations, a fair number of them are on the Rimma/Triton Trade Routes that goes through the middle of the cluster. So . . . by placing Greeop below the Minos Cluster, to the left of the trade route, we can have the Minos Conflict being a battle on the edge of the Minos Cluster, but still within its borders.
Cadrel Expanse --- has to be accessible from the Greeop Sector and the Binaural Sector (for the intents and purposes of the Minos Conflict and Outer Rim Wars I and II, we're using the Binaural Sector as the main Imperial forward location in the region ---> note that this does not discredit the existence of an Aurora Sector, just that the Binaural Sector is the one the Imperials launch from in these historical multiplayer competitions). The only way I could get this to work was to place the Binaural Sector coreward (up) of this cluster, and the Greeop Sector to the right and maybe slightly rimward (down).
Binaural Sector --- if you've read the previous two entries, this requires no explanation. Has to have access to the Minos Cluster and the Cadrel Expanse.
The following are regions that are fairly solid, but could move slightly if it is really needed.
Halas Sector --- this is a 'normally quiet region of space' that was detected as having become less quiet by PBF forces as they headed back from the Cadrel Expanse to the Greeop Sector. It is said to be 'beyond long-range scans' (other than detecting increased transmissions), but also that any Imperial presence there is 'too close to RS space'. So this sector can be placed anywhere rimward (down) of the Minos Cluster, as long as it's out beyond and between the Cadrel Expanse and the Greeop Sector. This sector connects to the Enomea Rim, which I have placed rimward (down) of it.
Enomea Rim --- The presence of the descriptive word 'rim' in its title seems to suggest that this region is in fact on the border of civilised space (or perhaps right on the edge of travellable space) . . . so technically it is beyond the Outer Rim, and well into Wild Space (mind you, it can be argued that the Minos Cluster is in Wild Space, so this location must be really far out and uncivilised . . .). Has to connect to the Halas Sector, which I've placed coreward (up) of it. Imperial and White Guard (para-Imperial pirate organisation) fought over the Halas Sector and the Enomea Rim, with White Guard forces based in the Enomea Rim, and Imperial forces trying to get a foothold in the Halas Sector to assail the White Guard in their own territory (of course we had to screw this all up by attacking Imperial forces, even though they were kind of doing us a favour, as the White Guard were a very serious threat to our operations).
??? Sector --- as you can see on the map, I have indicated two ??? sectors . . . both of these placements are incorrect, and they are both the one location (reason? In one campaign an RS force helps evacuate a world who's star is about to go nova . . . then a few campaigns later, another RS force is travelling through a foreign sector when they are waylaid by an exploding star . . . the nova rate of the galaxy is approximately three per century, so it seems higly likely that they were both in the same sector). As far as I see it, the ??? Sector (apart from needing a name) is somewhere to the left of the Cadrel Expanse.
Desdemona Sector --- The main prerequisites for this location is that it has to be far from RS space. In the campaign it's referred to as the 'Unknown Regions', but since canon Unknown Regions is actually one quarter of the galaxy on a completely different part of the galaxy (don't ask), we'll take that to mean 'the edge frontier of Wild Space' . . . So I've tentatively placed it there, since if it were on the other side of the Kathol Sector it would be near the Enomea Rim, which is not terribly mysterious since there are a bunch of marauding pirates we already know of there. :P
Osiris Sector --- not actually drawn onto the map at this stage, but it would be a very small sector, somewhere near the Cadrel Expanse (maybe down and to the left a bit?). Don't really have much information on this, but as it is a sector RS forces liberated from recent Imperial occupation in the wake of the Outer Rim War I (the battle over the Cadrel Expanse) . . .
Now, regions who's locations are fast and fluid, and can change at our slightest whim . . .
Ynia Cluster --- this small star cluster joins to the Minos Cluster somewhere. I really don't know where, however it has to be a position that we might have trouble reinforcing . . . Imperial forces were (at one stage) reinforcing the cluster through the Minos Cluster . . . I really don't know where to put this, but it has to be somewhere that the Imperial forces can realistically garrison without us breaking in, because we quite simply haven't (we've essentially forgotten about the cluster and abandoned the local resistance groups to opposing the Imperial presence alone . . . unless they've already won or the Imperial forces withdrew because we cut their supply lines into the cluster . . . ). I don't know. Somewhere connecting to the Minos Cluster.
Meridian Cluster --- territory tentatively held by New Republic forces (not us), which I've placed coreward (up) of the Minos Cluster, to express that it is close to civilisation and further from our territory as such . . . I don't really have any solid placement for it, other than it's closer to New Republic territory (not that Elrood Sector is New Republic territory) . . . another requirement for it, is that it should be near the Dotani Sector, as Imperial forces from the Dotani Sector raided the cluster.
Dotani Sector --- previously Imperial-held territory that borders the Binaural Sector, and must be within striking distance of the Meridian Cluster. As long as those two conditions are satisfied, I don't really care where on the map it sits.
Okay, so that's all that I've tentatively placed at the moment, much of which can change, some of which cannot . . .
For now, I'd like to hear from Randy to see what additions or alterations he would suggest, based on the data he himself has collected/created based on the ABG's exploits . . .
Once we've settled an overview of where sectors should be placed, then we'll move towards the more nitty-gritty details within the sectors.
":)
Col. David Vaughan
Logistics Officer
05/12/2006 07:16 Starkiller
My first suggestion is a quick reminder, really: space is three-dimensional. The central bulk of the disc is the main colonized area in the galaxy, but the Milky Way's disc is 1,000 lightyears thick away from the Core bulge, and the Star Wars galaxy is wider by 20,000 l-y (120,000 as opposed to 100,000), so we can assume that it would be slightly thicker as well. This opens up an opportunity to place some regions above/below each other, since the typical sector seems to tend between 500 and 1,500 light-years across, so one could assume they might be roughly the same along the z-axis. This opens the possibiliy of a central sector with fringe sectors above and below it (encompassing the edges of the disc and any star clusters which may be located above/below it).
According to the ABG, the Greeop Sector has at least two direct neighbors: Minos Cluster and a small NR backwater sector called 'Kola'. We generally treat the Greeop Sector as being located on the Rimma, between Elrood and Minos, with the main bulk slightly galactic-west (left) of the Rimma. That's flexible, though: just replace the Rimma running through Greeop with a regional spur/bypass of the Rimma and that probably is set.
I've always assumed the Cadrel Expanse to be where Vaughen has tentatively placed it, so that's cool. According to the resources I've seen (canon SW), Elrood either is or becomes a New Republic member around our time period.
Except the possibility of star clusters like the Meridian and Ynia Cluster being above/below the galactic plane, I can't think of anything else right now. Back to Vaughen, I guess.
- Randy Starkiller
05/12/2006 15:33 Vaughan
Oops. Forgot to Reply to All. Also, one other note . . . would you be able to specify what extra locations you have and would like to include, like the Kola Sector? Tanks.
Regarding three-dimensional space: This is true, however there is no easy or good way to represent that on a two-dimensional map . . . so with a few exceptions, I think the default sector or region should be all the way thick, or at least not have other sectors or regions on top of them. Keeping in mind we have to show it on a map. Locations within each sector can be implied as being up and down within it, but it shouldn't make too much difference as we'll be representing it on a two-dimensional map (some exceptions could be, for example, the Ynia Cluster, which I can't find anywhere decent to place . . .).
Greeop Sector placement: I don't have a problem with Kola, but . . . coreward of Minos Cluster? I have never seen that representation on any maps that I've come across (and yes, I know many of them are contradictory, but the idea seems to be that Greeop is rimward of Minos). As for the trade route . . . I agree with putting the bulk of the Sector to the left of the trade route, but with a fringe overlapping it for us to run cargo checks, etc.
Cadrel Expanse: Excellent.
Elrood Sector: Would you be able to cite which sources infer the sector becoming affiliated with the New Republic? I know that the sector eventually joins the New Republic, but I didn't know when . . . and by 'our time period', which are you referring to? The RS main time period (circa 9 ABY) or the ABG time period (circa 13 ABY)?
Meridian and Ynia Clusters above/below the plane: I could live with this. I really can't find anywhere decent for them, so they can be up and/or down. However on the map they would look to all be on the same plane --- but them's the breaks of using a flat surface to draw something with depth, like a galaxy. :P
So, as far as I can see . . . all we need to do is agree on a location for the Greeop Sector, and then we can start map-making . . .
":)
Col. David Vaughan
Logistics Officer
06/12/2006 08:59 Starkiller
Elrood is is either New Republic or independent by 12 ABY, probably much sooner given the general wisdom holds the New Republic having strongholds on that side of the galaxy, with the Empire entrenched opposite, with pockets on either side. I'll see if I can find a source (possibly pester Leland Chee, Keeper of the Star Wars Holocron continuity database, on the sw.com forums) on when Elrood joined the New Republic.
I agree with the two-dimensional projection issue, I was just merely pointing out that the option was availible to us. :)
So, assuming we can agree on a placement of Greeop in relation to Minos, it's either on the Rimma or the Triton Trade Route? I can live with that. I have a little bit of the sector's internal cartography in my head, so we'll be able to compare notes on that later. I did, for the ABG, create a regional trade roue called the Nitram Lutha Hyperboulevard which runs galactic-east to galactic-west. It heads out into Imperial-held systems to the west, and south-east further out into Wild Space. The Greeop Way route connects to it in the Baphomet system (which then runs to the Greeop system, creating the strategic backdoor), while the Rimma/Triton connects north of the Greeop system in a system I called the Corona system.
Anyways, rambling aside: I can't wait to get down into the nitty gritty of working out this information. Let's hope all goes well. :)
Wishing you all the best, Randy Starkiller
06/12/2006 11:28 Vaughan
zomg replies!
Elrood is is either New Republic or independent by 12 ABY, probably much sooner given the general wisdom holds the New Republic having strongholds on that side of the galaxy, with the Empire entrenched opposite, with pockets on either side. I'll see if I can find a source (possibly pester Leland Chee, Keeper of the Star Wars Holocron continuity database, on the sw.com forums) on when Elrood joined the New Republic.
If you can raise the Keeper of the Holocron on the issue, that would be most excellent. =)
I agree with the two-dimensional projection issue, I was just merely pointing out that the option was availible to us. :)
Oh, good, good. Now I understand what you mean. :)
So, assuming we can agree on a placement of Greeop in relation to Minos, it's either on the Rimma or the Triton Trade Route?
The reason I've placed Greeop rimward of Minos is because in most maps and descriptions I've seen, this is the configuration of major sectors:
IMPERIAL SECTOR | MINOS CLUSTER
-----------------------------|---------------------------
CADREL EXPANSE | GREEOP SECTOR
That's a rough representation, but the relationship to each other is vaguely that (the Minos Conflict actually seems to show Imperial territory up-right from Greeop, but that doesn't work with the inclusion of the Cadrel Expanse in Outer Rim Wars I and II).
I can live with that. I have a little bit of the sector's internal cartography in my head, so we'll be able to compare notes on that later.
Excellent. After we nail down these overarching details, I would like to get stuck into the nitty-gritty internal sector details. )
I did, for the ABG, create a regional trade roue called the Nitram Lutha Hyperboulevard which runs galactic-east to galactic-west. It heads out into Imperial-held systems to the west, and south-east further out into Wild Space. The Greeop Way route connects to it in the Baphomet system (which then runs to the Greeop system, creating the strategic backdoor), while the Rimma/Triton connects north of the Greeop system in a system I called the Corona system.
Sounds good. :)
Would you be able to provide a rough graphical sketch of what you see the placements as being? That way it might be clearer to work with to properly determine similarities and differences than a purely textual context.
Also, once we get into nitty-gritty inner-sector details, I was hoping for your assistance in placing locations featured in ITOD missions, coming up with names of planets/stars/systems/nebulae as we go. I have no skill when it comes to names. Of course, if this is too much to ask, I'm sure Raven would be able to assist in providing names for previously-unnamed regions.
Anyways, rambling aside: I can't wait to get down into the nitty gritty of working out this information. Let's hope all goes well. :)
Indeed. Hopefully we can get onto that soon.
":)
Col. David Vaughan
Logistics Officer
07/12/2006 07:41 Ocopaqui
I guess I'll throw in my few creds...
What I could do when making the map is have in inset to show the z axis representation of systems/clusters/nebulae/etc. It wouldn't be super hard for me to do, I'd just need to have those details pretty close to set before I start drafting the map. If something was important enough to have the need to be shown above the galactic plane, it wouldn't be anything crazy hard.
07/12/2006 08:51 Vaughan
- nods*
That's good to know. :)
It's not something I'd be terribly interested to pursue at the moment, but it is good to know we have the option open to us if we find a good reason to do so.
Thank-you. =)
A question: once we agree on sector placements, would it be possible for you to come up with the map with sector borders only, and then later add details as we go along (such as system placements, trade routes if possible)?
":)
Col. David Vaughan
Logistics Officer
07/12/2006 08:58 Ocopaqui
Yeah, once you guys get done shifting sectors, shoot me an email detailing what you'd like and I'll draft it up.